Barbara, tell this couple they live in a lovely house.
Do they agree ? Do they think it's a lovely house ?
Tell me about the decoration of this house, the doors,
what's it mean ?
People used to do carvings like that.
Did they decorate it that way ?
No, it was the Jews again.
The Jews did it !
The door's a good century old.
Did Jews own this house ?
Yes, all these houses.
All these houses on the square were Jewish ?
Jews lived in all the ones in front, on the street.
Where did the Poles live ?
ln the courtyards, where the privies were.
There used to be a store here.
What kind ?
A food store.
Owned by Jews ?
Yes.
So the Jews lived in the front,
and the Poles in the coutyar with the privies.
How long have these two lived here ?
15 years.
Where'd they live before ?
ln a courtyard across the square.
They've gotten rich.
- Them ? - Yes.
Yes.
How did they get rich ?
They worked.
How old's the gentleman ?
He's 70.
He looks young and hale.
Do they remember the Jews of Grabow ?
Yes. And when they were deported, too.
They recall the deportation of the Grabow Jews ?
He says he speaks ''Jew'' well.
He speaks ''Jew'' ?
As a kid he played with Jews so he speaks ''Jew''.
First, they grouped them there, where that restaurant is,
or in this square, and took their gold.
An older among the Jews collected the gold
and turned it over the police.
That done, the Jews were put in the Catholic church.
A lot of gold ?
Yes, the Jews had gold
and some handsome candelabras.
Did the Poles know the Jews would been killed at Chelmno?
Yes, they knew.
The Jews knew it, too.
Did the Jews try to do something about it,
to rebel, to escape ?
The young tried to run away.
But the Germans caught them
and maybe killed them even more savagely.
ln every town and village, 2 or 3 streets were closed
and the Jews kept under guard.
They couldn't leave there.
Then they were locked in the Polish church here in Grabow
and later taken to Chelmno.
Background, the synagogue
The Germans threw children as small as these
into the trucks by the legs.
She saw that ?
- Old folks too. - Threw kids into the trucks.
The Poles knew the Jews would be gassed in Chelmno ?
Did this gentleman know ?
Does he recall the Jews' deportation from Grabow ?
At that time, he worked in the mill.
There, opposite ?
Yes, and they saw it all.
What did he think of it? Was it a sad cheery about?
Yes. How could you see that without sadness?
What trades were the Jews in ?
They were tanners, tradesmen,
tailors.
They sold things... eggs, chickens, butter.
There were a lot of tailors,
tradesmen, too.
But most were tanners.
They had beards and sidelocks.
Yes.
He says they weren't pretty.
They weren't pretty ?
They stank, too.
They stank ?
Why did they stink ?
Because they were tanners, and the hides stink.
The Jewish women were beautiful.
The Poles liked to make love with them.
Are Polish women glad there are no Jewesses left ?
What'd she say ?
That the women who are her age now
also liked to make love.
So the Jewish women were competitors ?
lt's crazy how the Poles liked the little Jewesses !
Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses ?
Naturally, such beautiful women ?
Why ? What made them so beautiful ?
lt was because they did nothing. Polish women worked.
Jewish women only thought of their beauty and clothes.
So Jewesses did no work !
None at all.
Why not ?
They were rich.
The Poles had to serve them and work.
l heard her use the word ''capital''.
The capital was in the hands of the Jews.
Yes... You didn't translate that.
Ask her again. So the capital was in the Jews' hands ?
All Poland was in the Jews' hands.
Are they glad there are no more Jews here, or sad ?
lt doesn't bother them. As you know,
Jews and Germans ran all Polish industry before the war.
Did they like them on the whole ?
Not much. Above all, they were dishonest.
Was life in Grabow more fun when the Jews were here ?
He'd rather not say.
Why does he call them dishonest ?
They exploited the Poles. That's what they lived off.
How did they exploit them ?
By imposing their prices.
Ask her if she likes her house.
Yes,
but her children live in much better houses.
ln modern houses !
They've all gone to college.
Great ! That's progress !
Her children are the best-educated in the village.
Very good, Madam ! Long alive education !
lsn't this a very old house ?
Yes, Jews lived here before.
So Jews used to live here. Did she know them ?
Yes.
What was their name ?
She doesn't know.
What was their trade ?
Benkel, their name was.
And what was their trade ?
They had a butcher shop.
A butcher shop. Why is she laughing ?
Because the gentleman said it was
a butcher shop where you could buy cheap meat. Beef !
What does he think about their being gassed in trucks?
He says he doesn't like that at all.
lf they'd gone to lsrael of their own free will,
he might have been glad.
But killing them was unpleasant.
Does he miss the Jews?
Yes, because there were some beautiful Jewesses.
For the young, it was... fine.
Are they sorry the Jews are no longer here or pleased?
How can l tell? l never went to school.
l can only think of how l am now. Now l'm fine.
ls she better off?
Before the war, she picked potatoes.
Now she sells eggs and she's much better off.
Because the Jews are gone or because of socialism?
She doesn't care, she's happy because she's doing well now.
How did he feel about losing his classmates?
lt still upsets him.
Does he miss the Jews?
Certainly.
They were goog Jews, Madam says.
GRABOW in winter
The Jews came in trucks
and later there was a narrow-gauge railway
that they arrived on.
They were packed tightly in the trucks,
or in the cars
of the narrow-gauge railway.
Lots of women and children.
Men too, but most of them were old.
The strongest were put in work details.
They walked with chains on their legs.
ln the morning, they fetched water,
looked for good, and so on.
These weren't killed right away.
That was done later.
l don't know what became of them.
They didn't survive, anyway.
Two of them did.
Only two.
They were in chains ?
- On the legs. - All of them ?
The workers, yes. The others were killed at once.
The Jewish work squad went through the village in chain
Yes.
Could people speak to them ?
No, that was impossible.
Why ?
No one dared.
What ?
No one dared.
Understand ?
Yes... No one dared. Why, was it dangerous ?
Yes, there were guards.
Anyway, people wanted nothing to do with all that.
Do you see ?
Gets on your nerves, seeing that every day.
You can't force a whole village to watch such distress.
When the Jews arrived,
when they were pushed into the church or the castle...
And the screams ! lt was frightful !
Depressing.
Day after day, the same spectacle !
lt was terrible ! A sad spectacle !
They screamed. They knew what was happening.
At first, the Jews thought they were going to be de-loused.
But they soon understood. Their screams
grew wilder and wilder.
Horrifying screams. Screams of terror.
Because they know what was happening to them.
Do you know how many Jews were exterminated there ?
Four something 400,000... 40,000...
400,000.
400,000, yes. l knew it had a 4 in it.
Sad, sad, sad !
''When the soldiers march,
''the girls open their windows and doors...''
Do you remember a Jewish child, a boy of 13 ?
He was in the work squad.
He sang on the river.
On the Narwa River ?
Yes.
- ls he still alive ? - Yes, he's alive.
He sang a German song
that the SS in Chelmno taught him.
''When the soldiers march,
''the girls open their windows and doors...''
SlMON SREBNlK,
the survivor of the 2nd period of extermination
at CHELMNO (the church period)
So it's a holiday in Chemno !
What holiday ? What's being celebrated ?
The birth of the Virgin Mary. lt's her birthday.
lt's a huge crowd, isn't it ?
But the weather's bad... lt's raining.
Ask them if they're glad to see Srebnik again.
Very. lt's a great pleasure.
Why ?
They're glad to see him again,
because they know all he's lived through.
Seeing him as he is now, they're very pleased.
They're pleased ?
Why does the whole village remember him ?
They remember him well
because he walked with chains on his ankles,
and he sang on the river.
He was young,
he was skinny,
he looked ready for his coffin.
Ripe for a coffin !
Did he seem happy or sad ?
Even the lady,
when she saw that child,
she told the German, ''Let that child go !''
He asked her, ''Where to ?'' ''To his father and mother.''
Looking at the sky, he said: ''He'll soon go to them.''
The German said that ?
They remember when the Jews were locked in this church ?
Yes, they do.
They brought them to the church in trucks.
At what time of day ?
All day long and into the night.
What happened ? Can they describe it in detail ?
At first, the Jews were taken to the castle.
Only later were they put into the church.
The second phase, right !
ln the morning, they were taken into the woods.
How were they taken into the woods ?
ln very big armored vans.
The gas came through the bottom.
Then they were carried in gas vans, right ?
Yes, in gas vans.
Where did the vans pick them up ?
The Jews ?
Yes.
Here, at the church door.
The trucks pulled up where they are now ?
No, they went right to the door.
The vans came to the church door?
And they all knew these were death vans?
Yes, they couldn't help knowing.
They heard screams at night ?
The Jews moaned, they were hungry.
They were shut in and starved.
Did they have any food ?
You couldn't look there. You couldn't talk to a Jew.
Even going by on the road, you couldn't look there.
Did they look anyway ?
Yes, vans came and the Jews were moved farther off.
You could see them, but on the sly.
ln sidelong glances.
That's right, in sidelong glances.
What kinds of cries and moans were heard at night ?
They called on Jesus and Mary and God,
sometimes in German, as she puts it.
The Jews called on Jesus, Mary and God !
The presbytery was full of suitcases.
The Jew's suitcases ?
Yes, and there was gold.
How does she know there was gold ?
The procession ! We'll stop now.
Were there as many Jews in the church
as there were Christians today ?
Almost.
How many gas vans were needed to empty it out?
An average of 50.
lt took 50 vans to empty it! ln a steady stream?
Yes.
The lady said before that
the Jews' suitcases were dumped in the house opposite.
What was in this baggage?
Pots with false bottoms.
What was in the false bottoms?
Valuables... objects of value.
They also had gold in their clothes.
When given food, the Jews sometimes threw them valuables
or sometimes money.
They said before it was forbidden to talk to Jews.
Absolutely forbidden.
Ask them if they miss the Jews.
Of course.
We wept too, Madam says.
And Mr. Kantarowski gave them bread and cucumbers.
Why do they think all this happened to the Jews ?
Because they were the richest !
Many Poles were also exterminated. Even priests.
Mr. Kantarowski
will tell us what a friend told him.
lt happened in Myno jewyce, near Warsaw.
Go on.
The Jews were gathered in a square.
The rabbi
asked an SS man, ''Can l talk to them ?''
The guard said yes.
So the rabbi said that around 2,000 years ago,
the Jews condemned the innocent Christ to death.
And when they did that, they cried out :
''Let his blood fall on our heads and on our sons' heads
Then the rabbi told them :
''Perhaps the time has come for that, so let us do nothing.''
''Let's us go, let us do as we're asked.''
He thinks the Jews expiated the death of Christ ?
He doesn't think so, or even that Christ sought revenge.
He didn't say that. The rabbi said it.
lt was God's will, that's all !
What'd she say ?
So Pilate washed his hands and said :
''Christ is innocent'', he sent Barrabas.
But the Jews cried out :
''let his blood fall on our heads''
That's all, now you know !
Was the road between Chelmno, the village
and the woods where the pits
were asphalted as it is now?
The road was narrower then, but it was asphalted.
How many feet were the pits from the road ?
They were around 1 ,600 feet,
maybe 1 ,900 or 2,200 feet away.
So even from the road, you couldn't see them.
How fast did the vans go?
PAN FALBORSKl
At moderate speed, kind of slow.
lt was a calculated speed because they had to kill
the people inside on the way.
When they went too fast, the people weren't quite dead
on arrival in the woods.
By going slower, they had time to kill the people inside.
Once a van skidded on a curve.
Half an hour later, l arrived
at the hut of a forest warden named Sendjak.
He told me : ''Too bad you were late.
''You could have seen a van that skidded.
''The rear of the van opened
''and the Jews fell out on the road.
''They were still alive.
''Seeing those Jews crawling, a Gestapo man
''took out his revolver and shot them.
''He finished them all off.
''Then they brought Jews who were working in the woods.
''They righted the van,
''and put the bodies back inside.''
This was the road
the gas vans used.
There were 80 people in each van.
When they arrived, the SS said :
''Open the doors !''
We opened them. The bodies tumbled right out.
An SS man said, ''2 men inside !'' These 2 men
worked at the ovens. They were experienced.
Another SS man screamed :
''Hurry up ! The other van's coming !''
We worked until the whole shipment was burned.
That's how it went, all day long. So it went.
l remember that once they were still alive.
The ovens were full,
and the people lay on the ground.
They were all moving, they were
coming back to life,
and when they were thrown into the ovens,
they were all conscious. Alive.
They could feel the fire burn them.
When we built the ovens, l wondered what they were for.
An SS man told me :
''To make charcoal. For laundry irons.''
That's what he told me. l didn't know.
Whe the ovens were completed,
the logs put in
and the gasoline poured on and lighted,
and when the first gas van arrived,
then we knew why the ovens were built.
When l saw all that, it didn't affect me.
Neither did the 2nd or 3rd shipment.
l was only 13,
and all l'd ever seen until then
were dead bodies.
Maybe l didn't understand.
Maybe if l'd been older l'd have understood,
but the fact is, l didn't.
l'd never seen anything else.
ln the ghetto, l saw... in the ghetto in Lodz,
that as soon as anyone took a step, he fell dead.
l thought that's the way things had to be,
it was normal. l'd walk the streets of Lodz,
maybe 100 yards, and there'd be 200 bodies.
People were hungry.
They went into the street and they fell, they fell...
Sons took their father's bread,
fathers took their sons',
everyone wanted to stay alive.
So when l came here, to Chelmno, l was already
l didn't care about anything.
l thought : if l survive,
l just want one thing :
5 loaves of bread. To eat. That's all.
That's what l thought. But l dreamed, too, that
if l survive, l'll be the only one left in the world,
not another soul Just me. One.
Only me left in the world, if l get out of here.
The RUHR
''Geheime Reichssache'', secret Reich business.
''Berlin, June 5, 1942.
''Changes to be made to special vehicles now in service
''at Kulmhof (Chelmno) and to those now being built.
''Since December 1941 ,
''97,000 have been processed (verarbeite in German)
''by the 3 vehicles in service, with no major incidence.
''ln the light of observation made so far, however,
''the following technical changes are needed :
''First, the van's normal load
''is usually 9 to 10 per square yard.
''ln Saucer vehicles, which are very spacious,
''maximum use of space is impossible,
''not because of any possible overload,
''but because loading to full capacity
''would affect the vehicle's stability.
''So reduction of the load space seems necessary.
''lt must absolutely be reduced by a yard,
''instead of trying to solve the problem, as hitherto,
''by reducing the number of pieces loaded.
''Besides, this extends the operating time,
''as the empty void must also be filled with carbon monoxid.
''On the other hand, if the load space is reduced
''and the vehicle is packed solid,
''the operating time can be considerably shortened.
''The manufactures told us during a discussion,
''that reducing the size of the van's rear
''would throw it badly off balance.
''The front axle, they claim, would be overloaded.
''ln fact, the balance is automatically restored
''because the merchandise aboard displays
''during the operation
''a natural tendency to rush to the rear doors, and
''mainly found lying there at the end of the operation.
''So the front axle is not overloaded.
''Secondly :
''The lighting must be better protected than now.
''The lamps must be enclosed in a steel grid
''to prevent their being damaged.
''Lights could be eliminated,
''since they apparently are never used.
''However, it has been observed
''that when the doors are shut,
''the load always presses hard against them
(against the doors )
''as soon as darkness sets in.
''This is because the load naturally rushes
''toward the light when darkness sets in,
''which makes closing the doors difficult.
''Also, because of the alarming nature of darkness,
''screaming always occurs when the doors are closed.
''lt would therefore be useful to light the lamp
''before and during the first moments of the operation.
''Third :
''For easy cleaning of the vehicle,
''there must be a sealed drain in the middle of the floor.
''The drainage hole's cover, 8 to 12 inches in diameter,
''would be equipped with a slanting trap,
''so that fluid liquids
''can drain off during the operation.
''During cleaning, the drain can be used
''to evacuate large pieces of dirt
''The aforementioned technical changes
''are to be made to vehicles in service
''only when they come in for repairs.
''As for the 10 vehicles ordered from Saurer,
''they must be equipped with all innovations and changes.
''shown by use and experience to be necessary.
''Submitted for decision to Gruppenleiter ll D,
''SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Walter Rauff.
''Signed Just.''